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 Post subject: In Depth thoughts on the Design Competition Finalists
PostPosted: November 19th, 2013, 13:40 
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In-game name: Colorplant
First of all i want to congratulate everyone of the finalists! :D

I made this topic to bring forward some more in depth discussion about the scrolls that were selected and have a chance of appearing in the game. Some of them are good, but some of them i really do not want anywhere near scrolls. No offense to the creators of the scrolls, but i would like to speak my opinion on what i think fits best in the game.

Link to the Finalists: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3578

-ENERGY-

Piercing Projectile - This is a simple and good Scroll. it has good Synergy with a lot of Energy-creatures and will make it easier for Energy whitout structures to be viable. I really hope this one gets picked. It also becomes very powerful if used on a Dustrunner. This is one of the scrolls i want to win.

Recycle - Why do people think this is good? It may seem like a Fertile Soil for Energy which it basically is, just much worse. Fertile Soil always gets used on creatures that either are going to die, or on sisters/rats or other low-cost creatures. Energy has no good low-cost structures, and i certainly would not run useless contraption only for this scroll. Think about this for a second, you use 3 Energy, one card and lose a structure on the board just to end up with one more scroll than you had before you used it. It looks good in theory but i would never run it.

Collapse - Have people forgotten about End Of Reason? To help you remember, End Of Reason used to deal 1 damage to idols instead of 2 to creatures. Collapse is basically a End Of Reason, just more RNG. Nobody used End Of Reason before, but a lot of people seem to love Collapse and i don't understand why.

-DECAY-

AnthroPhobia - I like this one. It is probably be going to be used as another Damning Curse, Good for getting rid of Generals thats surrounded by units. The only thing i don't like though, is as i said it is probably be going to be used as another damning curse. We don't really need another damning curse. If something was done to the cost and it ramped in another resource it would be better in my opinion.

SoulFire - Please no. If you give Decay much more direct-idol damage it is just going to be boring to play. This with a darkling is 6 damage to an idol. Use it on a creature adjacent to watcher and thats 7 Idol damage done. Watcher is more than enough idol-damage for decay in my opinion, i even think its overpowered. I really don't want to see this in the game.

Eclipse - Really cool idea. Im not sure about the 1-cost though, why would it be so cheap? Decay has a lot of ramp in other resources and some of it is even really good (Return to Nature, Tethered Recruit etc.) so i could see this scroll actually being really good. imagine suddenly going from 7 to 12 Decay or something. That is worth much more than 1 Decay to do. It should be costed at around 5 i think. This is one of the scrolls i want to win.

-ORDER-

False Intelligence - Again, Please no. This would not be fun at all. You are basically making the opponents turn useless, unless he has a lot of spells in hand that also fits the situation. and even if you have, you are still at a disadvantage because your units cant attack for 2 turns. This is very much broken, and it will make for a lot of anger. I never want to just give up my turn because i cant do anything, i hate it when i get a dead draw and have to do that and this scroll basically assures a dead turn.

Frozen Blood - Well its the only Order-scroll that is crazy unbalanced, but its not very good. Increasing base countdown is not going to do something about an attacking creature. In about every situation there is it would be much smarter to spend your resources to try and kill a creature instead of slowing it down.

Spoils Of war - This in Lategame Order would be insane, probably too insane. Order is often in a position where it can kill a lot of units, especially with the good relentless units it has. I think this scroll is too good, and i do not want it in the game. Lategame Order has enough card-draw with IMP.

-GROWTH-

Bear Trap - This is not going to make it in the game anyway unfortunately, so i didn`t bother making up too many opinions on it. I really like the idea of Tile enchantments though, and hope Mojang considers it sometime in the future. I really don't think it should be invisible like Bear Trap though, i don't know why people want these trap-cards. they would not work as well in Scrolls as in other CCG`s.

Oaken Aura - This is another scroll that basically just makes for longer and more boring games. I don't feel like there is much strategic depth to these kind of cards at all and don't really care for them. It would also give you opponent a chance to get a free turn where he can focus on idol damage whiteout feeling guilty. Unless you block all lanes ofcourse, then it would make for another card that makes the opponent have a dead turn.

Pact With The Ancestors - I could maybe see this fit as a decay Scroll, but im not sure what it is doing in growth. Why would you give up your turn to let your opponent kill your creatures so you can get cards? Card advantage is good in this game, but not that good. he could even focus on idols instead, which would make your last turn useless. All in all its not a good card.

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 Post subject: Re: In Depth thoughts on the Design Competition Finalists
PostPosted: November 19th, 2013, 14:15 
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In all honesty, among the 12 cards I feel that only Bear Trap is actually considered as a "creative card", thus its the only card that I wish it could win. I assume many people had expectations of seeing what kind of interesting cards would win the competition, but the finalists all ended up evolving around the same 3 mechanics. Cooldown, card draw and idol damage.

To some extent I even feel a viable card like Piercing Projectile doesnt really need a Design competition to think up of it, since we all know the idea came from Machination Mindset.

Ever since the finalist cards have been announced, I assume everyone has their opinions on whether the cards will be fun or not, but it seems to me the general response is that many of the cards if put into scrolls will make games imbalanced or even longer. Then again the cards are still viable to be modified again so we'll never know. I hope the Scrolls devs take in the feedback from the community before they decide to implement any of the cards.

I wished that there was some insight as to how the finalist cards were chosen, so that players can understand the judge's opinions.

Once again, congratulations to the people who won the avatar head reward.
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 Post subject: Re: In Depth thoughts on the Design Competition Finalists
PostPosted: November 19th, 2013, 15:11 
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This is my opinion on the 12 chosen scrolls, like Colorplant said, this is just my opinion and please do not take offence. I am sorry that I am quite negative but it is the best way to pick apart ideas to see if it would work in game.

To be honest I am disappointed with the 12 chosen scrolls. My favourite scroll is AnthroPhobia. It is a simple yet clever scrolls that will force your opponent to think about positioning of units. Would work great against rot eaters, wings captain etc. Soulfire is yet another direct idol damage scroll. There are more than enough of these already so I don't think we need another. There is nothing you can do against it and we will end up with direct damage rush decks that no deck can counter. Eclipse is really unbalanced imo. 1 cost is way too cheap. It could maybe work but would need a lot of testing.

I like the idea of tile enchantments but mojang would have to bring in a few at once into the game for them to work. Bear trap being invisible is a bad idea. People complain that you can not counter quake, (you can spread units out to counter thunder surge) so how on earth are you supposed to counter something you cannot see. Oaken Aura I don't really see the point of. The only way I could see it being used is a growth player waiting to draw god hand and delaying until they can draw it. I still don't see it being played much as it gives the opponent a free turn. Pact with the ancestors isn't bad but I don't think it would ever get played.

The order entries are probably the most disappointing. False Intelligence doesn't work in its current state. It should do one or the other not both. Even then I don't like the idea of opponent not being able to play a unit. It's just so broken. Spoils of war is far too strong , I echo colorplants thoughts on it. Frozen Blood would never get played but despite that its better than the other two order scrolls.

Collapse would never get played. Useful to finish off the opponents last couple of idols but too situational to get put into a deck. Recycle is ok, energy needs card draw. However its effectively trading 2 scrolls for 2 scrolls so can't see it being run. Piercing projectile could work, I can see it being put in creature heavy decks and being combined with machinated.

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 Post subject: Re: In Depth thoughts on the Design Competition Finalists
PostPosted: November 19th, 2013, 16:09 
Spearman
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I am also very disappointed on the chosen scrolls. My only theory is that the judges wanted to ensure that Piercing Projectile and Eclipse ( and maybe Anthrophobia? ) got in so they paired them up with 7 obviously broken scrolls for different reasons?


Last edited by Slin on November 19th, 2013, 16:51, edited 2 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: In Depth thoughts on the Design Competition Finalists
PostPosted: November 19th, 2013, 16:38 
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I agree with Tenkou388
I was hoping for a new mechanic more

I felt the need to polish the rules a little more
looking forward to 2nd Design Competition
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 Post subject: Re: In Depth thoughts on the Design Competition Finalists
PostPosted: November 19th, 2013, 16:52 
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A lot of the scrolls picked seem intrinsically too strong. With some changes they could work, but at the cost and what they do, it's really problematic. Then there are also a couple that seem broken to a point where I wouldn't mind breaking them.
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 Post subject: Re: In Depth thoughts on the Design Competition Finalists
PostPosted: November 19th, 2013, 17:23 
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Mojang reserves the right to modify stuff for balance as they see fit.

In MTG design the people who create cards and the people who tweak the costs and effects for balance are separate departments, for good reason. You let the creative types run wild and you let the hard-nosed reign it in so as not to destroy the meta, but without that creativity you wouldn't have new and exciting things coming along. And of course much of that reigning in involves actual testing rather than mere theory, which a designer can hardly do. So I would not get worried about existing scrolls being undercosted, that will be taken care of.

Nor does every scroll have to be awesome and meta defining either (not every card can be "good" in that sense.) Seeing use in judgement, low ranks, niche combos with cards that might not exist yet, or by merely establishing an idea to be developed later is perfectly valid.

In as much as many scrolls don't actually have interesting effects or one that will be conducive to interesting games though, we still have a problem.
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 Post subject: Re: In Depth thoughts on the Design Competition Finalists
PostPosted: November 19th, 2013, 17:29 
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Memorial, memorial, memorial, recycle, sister of the fox, fertile soil, Memorial, memorial, memorial, recycle, false intelligence! Repeat next turn, but with more scrolls and resources.

Is this the kind of strategic gameplay we want to encourage?

Recycle and collapse would only be reasonable if they took memorials out of the game. Otherwise you are just encouraging more draw decks.
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 Post subject: Re: In Depth thoughts on the Design Competition Finalists
PostPosted: November 19th, 2013, 18:05 
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Curiouscat wrote:
Memorial, memorial, memorial, recycle, sister of the fox, fertile soil, Memorial, memorial, memorial, recycle, false intelligence! Repeat next turn, but with more scrolls and resources.

Is this the kind of strategic gameplay we want to encourage?

Recycle and collapse would only be reasonable if they took memorials out of the game. Otherwise you are just encouraging more draw decks.


I have a feeling these were only picked to improve Blinky's GODE draw deck.
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 Post subject: Re: In Depth thoughts on the Design Competition Finalists
PostPosted: November 19th, 2013, 19:17 
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It is a good job I have an ego the size of a small moon and really thick skin, lol. ;)
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 Post subject: Re: In Depth thoughts on the Design Competition Finalists
PostPosted: November 19th, 2013, 20:58 
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Colorplant wrote:
-

Energy
Projectile - True.

Recycle - Its actually very powerful. You are familiar with the scroll state machine. Or any other dying structure. People keep trying to give energy card draw, i think they chose this for popularity. At 3 cost its quite a bad trade, 2 scrolls for 2 scrolls, unless you do use it on a state machine or near dead structure, where it becomes very powerful.

Collapse - Its a cool scroll to win a game with. Self-destruct to take out your enemy, but destroying your own units mid or early game would be awfully silly. Unless you can snipe the idols this scroll is not viable over the full course of the game.

Decay
Anthrophobia - It is an interesting idea, but it is basically another damning curse. I do hope this isnt added.

Soulfire - Amusing. Mojang do like idol damage, this would give them some very powerful idol smashing abilities early game. It is very bad for back and forth play (board presence). Not a fun addition at all.

Eclipse - Was it ever explained?


Last edited by Nicon on November 20th, 2013, 02:01, edited 3 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: In Depth thoughts on the Design Competition Finalists
PostPosted: November 19th, 2013, 21:00 
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Slin wrote:
I am also very disappointed on the chosen scrolls. My only theory is that the judges wanted to ensure that Piercing Projectile and Eclipse ( and maybe Anthrophobia? ) got in so they paired them up with 7 obviously broken scrolls for different reasons?

It is rude, but the winning scrolls were quite disappointing... They seemed quite unbalanced.
I was hoping for more creative ideas. Enchantments that could survive against removal, or spells that did something not yet thought of.


Last edited by Nicon on November 20th, 2013, 01:01, edited 2 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: In Depth thoughts on the Design Competition Finalists
PostPosted: November 19th, 2013, 22:14 
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More or less agree with your analysis of the scrolls.
A couple of them seem quite imbalanced.
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 Post subject: Re: In Depth thoughts on the Design Competition Finalists
PostPosted: November 20th, 2013, 02:27 
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i can see people liking collapse due to the recent advent of structure decks, and the fact that it's like a watcher/necrogeddon--lots of damage going out, even if it is rng, it's guaranteed to at least maim his idols, if not destroy them outright.

it also becomes MORE effective the later the match, since after the loss of an idol the rng gets more focused (only 4 targets to fire on instead of 5).

keep some spares in your hand to repopulate the field (or just have GOE memorialspam deck for TOTAL DOMINATION) and you're golden.
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 Post subject: Re: In Depth thoughts on the Design Competition Finalists
PostPosted: November 20th, 2013, 03:19 
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I actually really like some if these ideas. I think that Eclispse (standalone or with counterparts, I honestly think that the card seems Decay-specific, as Decay takes over other things with Decay) could introduce a WHOLE new kind of "jump deck" type of deck that starts one way, then "jumps" to another, adding a WHOLE new level of flexibilty to the game.

Granted, balancing needs to be done, but that's to be expected of any new idea. And then some entries are OP unless they become the "God Hand" of the faction, costing 8 for it's power, but that can easily be balanced and changed. New ideas are what keep a game interesting!

TL;DR: Just stay open to new ideas and remember that ANY MMO competive game (card or otherwise) is in a constant state of balancing, changing, and rebalancing. So stop being so negative about it and realize that CHANGE IS GOOD! Not all change, but at least some. Basically stop being babies and start planning your new decks!

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