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 Post subject: Måns muses about speeding up Scrolls
PostPosted: April 9th, 2014, 17:22 
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Hey Scrolldiers,

In IRC Måns has briefly made reference to a way that may means Scrolls would be that little bit faster:

Dragonene> I kinda want to add "Quick" as a smaller version of "Haste"
4:56 PM <Dragonene> or something similar
4:57 PM <Dragonene> well - decrease cd by 1 when it enters board, or comes into play with 1 cd
4:57 PM <Dragonene> I wonder what scrolls would be like if *all* units entered play with 1 cd, or 0 with haste. Things like Harvester obviously being exceptions ("Slow")
4:57 PM <Dragonene> So the default would be to start at CD 1, Haste would mean CD 0, and Slow would mean "Start at base CD"
4:58 PM <Dragonene> If the default was CD 1, that'd make it easier to answer to moves by playing stuff
4:58 PM <Dragonene> meaning placement would get some new interesting meanings, I think...
4:58 PM <Dragonene> hmm

So.. what do you guys think?

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 Post subject: Re: Måns muses about speeding up Scrolls
PostPosted: April 9th, 2014, 17:32 
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I think it would be nice, as IMO it would reduce the game length a bit and also make comebacks easier (after a wipeout, the new units you play often don't survive the 2 turns necessary to attack).

I guess that would probably mean adding "Slow" to (almost) all 3+ countdown units to preserve the balance.

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 Post subject: Re: Måns muses about speeding up Scrolls
PostPosted: April 9th, 2014, 17:39 
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I think I would really like this. Though it would obviously be a pretty huge change so it's probably hard to tell without seeing the effects in a game. I think this would go a very very long way towards mitigating the massive amount of removal spam that decay and more so energy have which just further prolongs games also
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 Post subject: Re: Måns muses about speeding up Scrolls
PostPosted: April 9th, 2014, 18:09 
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Not a fan.

Everything would get easier to kill -> less units on the board -> less strategy, tactic, and variety. Not even sure it would make games any faster.

I think most people want a game that 'plays a bit quicker': a bit less time per turn, no slow extended animations, easy in-game chat, etc. An I like the 'added suspension' of keeping your unit alive for another turn before it gives a return on investment.

On top of that lots of rebalancing needed as it would be a huge boost for Decay (if CDR becomes less important, then having no CDR is not such a disadvantage anymore) … at a time when balance now seems very good between all factions.
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 Post subject: Re: Måns muses about speeding up Scrolls
PostPosted: April 9th, 2014, 18:32 
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I find it a bit weird that creatures countdown like they do right now (without quick). If you play a skirmisher with 2 countdown, at 0 countdown it attacks, then next turn it has 1 countdown. This makes it seem like it has 1 countdown instead but comes into the game with a delay, as when you first play it is the only time it will actually have 2 countdown during your turn. I understand why, but to me it would make sense if scroll resets at your next turn.

Example; You play a scroll with 2 countdown. After 2 turns it attacks & stays at 0 countdown. At the beginning of your next turn it resets & will have 2 countdown. It currently it resets during your opponents turn.


The problem with giving all creatures quick is that it would theoretically make creatures stronger, and they already seem like the strongest component in the game. It seems like it might make enchantments & spells a tiny bit worse, although if creatures attack faster then it might be easier to use complimentary spells & enchantments.

It could be a lot of fun, I would like to try all Quick in testing grounds, i hope Mojang would consider.

Edited; To shorten & clarify.


Last edited by Nicon on April 9th, 2014, 19:26, edited 6 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Måns muses about speeding up Scrolls
PostPosted: April 9th, 2014, 18:53 
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I think just adding a French vanilla type of "quick" would be sufficient and also adds more to design. A few current scrolls can get "quick" but you don't need to add "slow". That's just silly. "Quick" and "haste" being the modifier and no modifier means the creatures CIP with their written CD enforced.

I don't think the quick attribute will alter the game fully but it will make it quicker without harming the integrity of said game.

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 Post subject: Re: Måns muses about speeding up Scrolls
PostPosted: April 9th, 2014, 19:09 
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Nicon wrote:
To be honest i find it weird that creatures countdown like they do. If i play a skirmisher it has 2 countdown, at 0 countdown it attacks, then next turn it has 1 countdown. This makes it seem like it has 1 countdown instead but come into the game with a delay. To me it would make sense if scrolls went to the countdown they have, you play a scroll with 2 countdown, then at your next turn it has 2 countdown. In this sense you could do what Mans said, by reducing the countdown of all creatures by 1, which means they are a little faster initially, but make them go to the countdown they have afterwards so that they are the same, except for that slightly faster burst in the beginning.
I think you misunderstood it (unless I misunderstood you :P ). If you play a 2-countdown skirmisher, it comes into play with its current countdown at 1, but its base countdown would still be 2.

So basically, instead of attacking on turns T+2, T+4, and so on, it would attack on turns T+1, T+3, and so on.

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 Post subject: Re: Måns muses about speeding up Scrolls
PostPosted: April 9th, 2014, 19:17 
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fomtg wrote:
I think you misunderstood it. If you play a 2-countdown skirmisher, it comes into play with its current countdown at 1, but its base countdown would still be 2.

I do get it, It was unclear but I meant now, without quick. Scrolls enter the game with 2 countdown, but 0 countdown is considered the same as its full countdown therefore it goes from 0 to its full value at the end of your turn while counting down by 1 at your next turn. It would make more sense to me if they went to their actual countdown at the start of the next turn. A 2 attack skirmisher would go back to 2 countdown on the turn after it attacks, instead of going 0-2-1 over the course of half a turn.

If you made this happen & you reduced all their countdowns by 1 so they attack as often as before, then all creatures would no longer enter the game with what seems like a delay. It would be exactly like all creatures had quick, as they would all do their first attack sooner, but otherwise would attack as often as normal.

But there are problems with this. People will get confused because they aren't used to it & having 0 countdown might make people think the creatures will attack next turn but they wont.

Of course everything having quick would need a lot of re-balancing, but i think its a cool idea.


Last edited by Nicon on April 9th, 2014, 19:32, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Måns muses about speeding up Scrolls
PostPosted: April 9th, 2014, 19:28 
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 Post subject: Re: Måns muses about speeding up Scrolls
PostPosted: April 9th, 2014, 20:53 
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I don't think this sort of effect will actually speed the game up- just make CDI weaker, and Blessing/RBP/IronWhip/MangyWolf stronger. There was a discussion about this last year, that started with the idea of giving Skirmishers haste instead of relentless- and then turned into what Mans describes here- since 6 Haste units per deck that are all better than Kinfolk Vet would be too much.

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 Post subject: Re: Måns muses about speeding up Scrolls
PostPosted: April 9th, 2014, 21:23 
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I think its a good mechanic, but it doesn't make sense to add it to existing cards, unless they seem like it would specifically fit that card's theme or they need a buff.
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 Post subject: Re: Måns muses about speeding up Scrolls
PostPosted: April 9th, 2014, 21:28 
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Whaaa…?
They always surprise me xD
That would change the game a lot. Ok, this are my first impressions about it and can be totally wrong: This would make creatures with 3 countdown strike a lot harder and husk and this kind of stuff can be really strong (Honorable General OP) while if they decide to make them slow it would be a huge difference between units with 3 and 2 cd. And stuff like Braves, etc. will not be the aggressive creatures of the game anymore.
If they want to make this change because the game is slow… I don't think that the game is that slow. With rebellion the majority of games last like 20~25 minutes and this is not a slow game. LoL last a lot more and people play it a lot more the think about scrolls is the feeling of being slow but I don't think it is right now.
My proposal to change this feeling that we all had once is to make the animations overlap each other. That means that there's no need to change the speed of the animation but the tempo.
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 Post subject: Re: Måns muses about speeding up Scrolls
PostPosted: April 9th, 2014, 21:34 
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It couldn't be added as is without breaking the game, If the devs learned anything from wild it's that new game concepts radically change the balance of the game for better AND worse.

Pretty much every scroll would need re-balancing as it fundamentally changes everything.

That said, I think it would in fact make Scrolls a better game.
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 Post subject: Re: Måns muses about speeding up Scrolls
PostPosted: April 9th, 2014, 22:58 
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Not keen on the idea. I'm pretty sure it would actually make games take longer, as it would be much harder to gain board control. It would be nightmare to rebalance the entire game around, only to find that it had the opposite effect than that intended. Don't even think about implementing this one.
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 Post subject: Re: Måns muses about speeding up Scrolls
PostPosted: April 9th, 2014, 23:15 
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having some cards that are say, a 2-2-3 that enters play with 1 countdown is an interesting mechanic, (thats more or less how aging knight works anyway) but I can't see how it would make sense to apply this to units across the board.
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