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 Post subject: New meta: Growth domination
PostPosted: January 27th, 2014, 13:53 
Infantryman
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In-game name: Etrin
Hello everyone!

Since the last patch, Growth seems to be flooding the ranked play, and with good reasons. Nerfs to Decay and Order have removed their ability to deal with its creature spamming: RtN can no longer get massively rid of all these rats, braves and owls, and mango+speed is no longer strong enough to crush great wolves and sisters of the owl, while the Wings Captain does no longer allow to keep up with CDR. (Let's not talk about Energy, that has always been defenseless against Growth...)

I'm not sure if the upcoming update will bring any balance, and I feel like Growth would deserve some adjustments to come back on an equal footing with the other factions. Here are the tweaks I have in mind:
  • Rat King
    Reason: get 3 2-health creatures for 1 4-cost card is a bit too much in my opinion.
    Suggestions: summon 1-health rats (possibly with 1 countdown to not be too harsh)
  • Rallying
    Reason: too much for too cheap [unfair compared to Fury (-1 for every unit), Bombard (-2 for every ranged unit) and Restless Bones (-1 for your Undead units), which all have restricted use, for only -2 cost]
    Suggestion: only decrease CD by 1 (still enough to make all your units attack, except the ones you played this turn)
  • Crimson Bull
    Reason: same as Rallying; too much for too cheap [unfair compared to Ire and Bile]
    Suggestion: only increase ATK by 1
  • God Hand
    Reason: merges Rallying and Crimson Bull (already both requiring a change) as 1 card for only 1 more resource that the sum of their costs
    Suggestion: only -1 CD and +1 ATK (as for Crimson Bull and Rallying)

Note: instead of (or in addition to? no, that would be too much) the proposed changes, the cost of these cards could be increased by 1 (maybe 2 for God Hand), but I think that doing so would hurt Growth's resource curve too hard.

So this is my feeling and improvement suggestion about the current state of the game. I'm eager to know what you think about this, your own feelings and suggestions. :)
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 Post subject: Re: New meta: Growth domination
PostPosted: January 27th, 2014, 14:06 
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I understand that Growth maybe a little above other factions but the changes you have suggested are not really in keeping with the idea of each faction. You are comparing buff scrolls and CD scrolls to other factions but you are not taking into consideration that those Growth specialises in buffing creatures, just like Order draws scrolls and are good blockers, just like Energy are good for structures and big tanky creatures and just like Decay benefit from death and destruction yet can still hit hard with direct idol damage.
I just think you are overlooking the fact that it isn't the scrolls which are OP but the lore is just a tad unbalanced.
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 Post subject: Re: New meta: Growth domination
PostPosted: January 27th, 2014, 16:26 
Infantryman
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Well, I don't see it that way. For me, a faction's lore influences the kind of cards that belong to it, not their power compared to other factions'.
In other words, it's ok to have spells that buff all your creatures only in the faction that revolves around spamming creatures, but it doesn't mean these spells should cost less than they would if they were played in another faction.
That is mainly because factions can be mixed in a single deck, thus potentially making some combinations OP (see Puppet+Nutrition for instance).
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 Post subject: Re: New meta: Growth domination
PostPosted: January 27th, 2014, 17:48 
General
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I think, before any changes are made to the factions, we need to see how the meta changes with Rebellion. There are SIGNIFICANT changes to three factions there, and probably a lot of changes for the fourth (we just haven't seen it yet).

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 Post subject: Re: New meta: Growth domination
PostPosted: January 27th, 2014, 18:54 
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This is a knee jerk reaction. Growth always seems strong right after a new update because its the easiest to keep strong with new changes.

I can tell you with 100% certainty that growth is just as strong as it always is and has gotten no better. At the top of the game its not the best...far from it actually.

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 Post subject: Re: New meta: Growth domination
PostPosted: January 27th, 2014, 19:11 
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Growth has always been a very strong and solid faction. Decay apparently countered it for some time and people stopped playing it since decay was so popular. Now that RtN has been nerfed and harvesters, we were bound to see growth come back as king. I do agree though, that growth could do with a little nerf, but it probably wont happen.

It is important not to compare across factions though, as the others said. I also think you are picking on the wrong scrolls, rallying is quite expensive. God hand is also quite expensive, it does pack a punch but late-game scrolls are meant to do that and are quite difficult to play.

Crimson bull on the other-hand is very strong, and i wouldn't mind seeing it become a 3 cost, especially as we are seeing more combos and scrolls that can benefit from it, like multiple unit scrolls (rat king gets triple the effect) and combos like culling the flock. I also think they underestimate multiple unit scrolls, some things can counter them like thunder surge, but many decks dont have that potential, like order decks which cannot get rid of them without attacking them directly.
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 Post subject: Re: New meta: Growth domination
PostPosted: January 27th, 2014, 19:23 
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Well, relentless is kinda Order's main method of dealing with multiple small creatures.

That's why I'd like to see a Wings relentless unit, at 2 cost or 5 cost.
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 Post subject: Re: New meta: Growth domination
PostPosted: January 28th, 2014, 10:36 
Skirmisher
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SpiffyDrew wrote:
This is a knee jerk reaction. Growth always seems strong right after a new update because its the easiest to keep strong with new changes.

I can tell you with 100% certainty that growth is just as strong as it always is and has gotten no better. At the top of the game its not the best...far from it actually.


Actually, most top players have jumped aboard the FotM Growth train already. Token rats and owls have become unstoppable now that Mangonel and RtN are nerfed. The only thing right now that can combat it are skirmishers and wings shields, which is why Order is still hanging on.
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 Post subject: Re: New meta: Growth domination
PostPosted: January 28th, 2014, 12:24 
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GhostBomb wrote:
The only thing right now that can combat it are skirmishers and wings shields, which is why Order is still hanging on.

I think you are overestimating orders ability to counter it. A skirmisher cant kill 2 rats. If you bother pay a scroll (focus) then you can, but its an expensive investment to waste on a token. Growth has never had any trouble getting past a wing shields, they tend to be the best and getting rid of them, merely because of their ability to buff everything to 5+ attack.

But now would be the ideal time to put in 3 of each spiky units, kabonks, and decimation, for some effective pest control.
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 Post subject: Re: New meta: Growth domination
PostPosted: January 28th, 2014, 12:27 
Infantryman
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GhostBomb wrote:
Actually, most top players have jumped aboard the FotM Growth train already. Token rats and owls have become unstoppable now that Mangonel and RtN are nerfed. The only thing right now that can combat it are skirmishers and wings shields, which is why Order is still hanging on.


I agree. In other words: Decay is currently behind, followed by Energy, while Order struggles to catch up with Growth.

Nicon wrote:
It is important not to compare across factions though, as the others said.


I'm still not convinced that one should not compare the power of scrolls across factions. That would imply that multi-resource decks are inconceivable, which is false.
I do understand that each faction has its particularity, which is one of the reasons why the game is difficult to balance, and also why we like it. But IMO this only means that a faction may have more scrolls focusing on its particularity, not that these scrolls should be cheaper than for other factions.

Anyway, I agree that this is not the right time for card changes, so I will just hope that the upcoming bunch of scrolls will significantly break all current standards (which may well be the case from what I have read :D ).
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 Post subject: Re: New meta: Growth domination
PostPosted: January 28th, 2014, 23:16 
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Hertios wrote:
I'm still not convinced that one should not compare the power of scrolls across factions. That would imply that multi-resource decks are inconceivable, which is false.

Scrolls can be compared across factions, but we, and probably not even Mojang, are not qualified to do it. As you said, each faction is unique. Its not just that they have different types of scrolls, order with its countdown increases or decay with its curses, but that they each extract different value from that scroll. There are so many factors to consider.

A lot of people just say, well crimson bull is better than ire & bile for the same cost, so buff ire & bile, but that is kind of silly. Not all scrolls are meant to be amazing, so crimson bull is a 5/5, ire & bile is a 3/5.

People dont consider that each resource has different ramping capabilities, while necrogeddon might be expensive for decay who tend to stop getting resources at 7, in the late game energy might go up to 12+ resources, which suggests energy might have less resource value than decay, but then you also have to consider that they ramp instead of card draw, and so many other things, and frankly if you have considered even a third of information then your head should explode like a watermelon with too many elastic bands around it.
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 Post subject: Re: New meta: Growth domination
PostPosted: January 28th, 2014, 23:46 
Spearman
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In-game name: Owl_Sage
I've firsthand experienced this as an order player. Growth has been owning me for games on end, even when it seems I'm ahead. Without the added earlier CDR of Captain it's damn near impossible to keep up with growth's creature spam and allows them to ramp comfortably. Yes growth has always been strong, but now other factions are losing the ability to keep footing with it. A change I'd like to see for starters is a 3 cost crimson bull perhaps. In the meantime I've been fooling around with a bunch of different Order scrolls to try and counter the Growth meta (kabonk, aging knight, decimation, crown of strength, fleetness) each of them tend to help a bit, but don't change the end result.

I hate to speculate before the new scrolls are released, but I haven't seen much yet that gives me faith that Order will be able to keep up with growth's aggression. The dominion abilities seem like they will seldom come into play as I'm often kept on the defensive against growth for 20 turns or more and can't even think of touching an idol while I'm clearing units. I have faith though that the 2nd batch of scrolls will have something better in store for Order or that someone will develop a meta that will prove me completely wrong :)
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 Post subject: Re: New meta: Growth domination
PostPosted: January 29th, 2014, 05:24 
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SpiffyDrew wrote:
This is a knee jerk reaction. Growth always seems strong right after a new update because its the easiest to keep strong with new changes.

I can tell you with 100% certainty that growth is just as strong as it always is and has gotten no better. At the top of the game its not the best...far from it actually.



I agree with you on that bit, Growths generally left untouched, but whats left unsaid is that Growth is generally the default *Op* faction. Every now and then another faction rises up for a few months only for the inevitable nerfs to come along and put them in place and then the game reverts back to the Growth meta. And lets keep in mind that during Decays reign that the top decks in a lot of cases were Decay&Growth not just mono Decay.

Currently Growths primary weakness is a lack of direct removal, that's about it. Considering the power of direct removal in this game that's not exactly a huge downside, on average removal will be a 1 for 1 trade on scrolls and possibly a worse investment on resources.

The global buffs on average are ridiculously more efficient then the single targets buffs or comparable global buffs of other factions. The tokens are stupidly scroll efficient on their own and just become silly when combined with the likes of CB, Rally, & Godhand.

Not to mention they have the ever pain in the ass Quake and Frostgale that as of yet have little to no counter play other then *stop putting units out* to help clear the field should they fail to overrun you the first time.

The final kicker is that for all the highly efficient scrolls that Growth has that they also still maintain some of the best practical draw power in the game.

I have my opinions on some scrolls but honestly I think the problem is they simply have to much overall power rather then 1 or 2 scrolls being overpowered.

With that little rant over I'll say that I'm more or less waiting for Rebellion before rallying around the flag over balance changes. It's just frustrating that the only time Growth ain't dominating is when some new OP unit comes along and makes a faction FoTM for a short time. When the game defaults and Growths dominating again they somehow manage to avoid any real progressive changes until the next Op unit comes along and starts a new FoTM.
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 Post subject: Re: New meta: Growth domination
PostPosted: January 29th, 2014, 11:15 
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I didn't play much since the last update so I can't really say if Growth is the new dominating faction. But after reading your comments it sounds reasonable.
If Growth is now (or again) the strongest faction I'm really happy, because Decay is, since I started playing the game, my favorite faction. I like the style of this faction and the synergies. But reading and hearing for a longer period how OP the faction I primarily play is, I got a little bit annoyed after some time... and felt like I should apologize for playing Decay. So if Growth is the new OP faction than that's great news. :D

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 Post subject: Re: New meta: Growth domination
PostPosted: January 29th, 2014, 14:36 
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I don't know.. I've always played Order and I have never had any problems against growth. I lost some matches vs Growth but most of the time I win this matchup, I'm even happy when I'm against growth.

However decay often kicks my ass. :)

Also I agree with Davidslain that it's not the right moment to change scrolls since the next set is so imminent.
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