All times are UTC + 1 hour


It is currently October 22nd, 2014, 14:29



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 1317 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 88  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Energy at high rankings
PostPosted: June 10th, 2013, 15:00 
Infantryman
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Fri Jun 07, 2013
Posts: 19
In-game name: hardcorey
Hey Everyone!

I'm really enjoying this game, but I've been getting frustrated recently with the popularity of growth decks, since my mono energy deck doesn't seem to fair well against them.

Has anyone been successful with energy at 1800+ rating? If so, what sort of build are you running?
Top
  Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Energy at high rankings
PostPosted: June 10th, 2013, 15:14 
Scholar
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2013
Posts: 453
I also got frustrated because of the popularity of growth. My G\E control deck doesnt do well against fast aggro :P
I just made a different deck. A G\O mid range control aggro variation of my old deck that works faster.
Top
  Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Energy at high rankings
PostPosted: June 10th, 2013, 15:17 
Skirmisher
Offline

Joined: Wed Jun 05, 2013
Posts: 56
In-game name: darksteel
I played Energy at 1700 rating but I have quickly come to the realization that Growth is simply the best colour in this game. Control relies on being able to interact, but the Growth deck typically can play more creatures than you can deal with. On top of that, cards like Rallying and God Hand in their colour break this game right now. They are able to combo a win out of nowhere that we actually can't deal with at all. This was with a Mono Energy Structure Control deck, and with the variation splashing Growth.
Top
  Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Energy at high rankings
PostPosted: June 10th, 2013, 15:39 
Infantryman
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Fri Jun 07, 2013
Posts: 19
In-game name: hardcorey
darksteel wrote:
I played Energy at 1700 rating but I have quickly come to the realization that Growth is simply the best colour in this game. Control relies on being able to interact, but the Growth deck typically can play more creatures than you can deal with. On top of that, cards like Rallying and God Hand in their colour break this game right now. They are able to combo a win out of nowhere that we actually can't deal with at all.


Couldn't have said it any better.
Top
  Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Energy at high rankings
PostPosted: June 10th, 2013, 15:57 
SG Tournament Winner
SG Tournament Winner
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2012
Posts: 907
Location: Snowy Sweden
In-game name: Sysp
I've played it to the top (#10 as of writing, was #1 a couple of days ago), mostly lost to Zrave actually (once to Ablacksus and once to jessesmit), .

The build I'm using stomps on Order (it was built to beat and tested vs fellow Badger Blinky's deck) and has it harder vs Growth. I'm currently retailoring it to even out both matchup, sacrificing power in the Order matchup to strengthen the Growth matchup (since that is the top of the field these days). I'll let you know how that goes.

But yeah, the great feeling of getting God Handed or Rallying / Crimson Bulled four turns in a row (yeah, that happened) is hard to beat. :) Growth looks strong atm, and it is mainly due to Order getting nerfed and getting played less (the Imp Resources cost to 7 nerf hit hard).
Top
  Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Energy at high rankings
PostPosted: June 10th, 2013, 16:05 
Scholar
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2013
Posts: 453
Sysp wrote:
I've played it to the top (#10 as of writing, was #1 a couple of days ago), mostly lost to Zrave actually (once to Ablacksus and once to jessesmit), .

The build I'm using stomps on Order (it was built to beat and tested vs fellow Badger Blinky's deck) and has it harder vs Growth. I'm currently retailoring it to even out both matchup, sacrificing power in the Order matchup to strengthen the Growth matchup (since that is the top of the field these days). I'll let you know how that goes.

But yeah, the great feeling of getting God Handed or Rallying / Crimson Bulled four turns in a row (yeah, that happened) is hard to beat. :) Growth looks strong atm, and it is mainly due to Order getting nerfed and getting played less (the Imp Resources cost to 7 nerf hit hard).


Could you share the deck list of this deck you say craps on order? :D would love to see it lol (also how are you retailoring).
Top
  Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Energy at high rankings
PostPosted: June 10th, 2013, 22:56 
Spearman
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Fri Jun 07, 2013
Posts: 40
In-game name: KyrosQF
Quote:
But yeah, the great feeling of getting God Handed or Rallying / Crimson Bulled four turns in a row (yeah, that happened) is hard to beat. :) Growth looks strong atm.

Basically this. It doesn't matter if you are using energy or order, this will happen in Growth's end game. If you don't have a huge momentum advantage (or tempo) to keep the board clear, this strategy is indefensible.

I do play order and I like playing order, got to near 1800 rating then ran into this problem several times in a row. This growth strategy isn't OP, but it is a very solid deck strategy that has a powerful endgame. It only feels unfair because Energy is supposed to be the endgame color.
Top
  Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Energy at high rankings
PostPosted: June 11th, 2013, 02:54 
Skirmisher
Offline

Joined: Wed Jun 05, 2013
Posts: 56
In-game name: darksteel
KyrosQF wrote:
Quote:
But yeah, the great feeling of getting God Handed or Rallying / Crimson Bulled four turns in a row (yeah, that happened) is hard to beat. :) Growth looks strong atm.

Basically this. It doesn't matter if you are using energy or order, this will happen in Growth's end game. If you don't have a huge momentum advantage (or tempo) to keep the board clear, this strategy is indefensible.

I do play order and I like playing order, got to near 1800 rating then ran into this problem several times in a row. This growth strategy isn't OP, but it is a very solid deck strategy that has a powerful endgame. It only feels unfair because Energy is supposed to be the endgame color.


That's the whole point. Growth can't be an early game and end game deck, the game shouldn't work like that. The thing is, all games are going to go to like 20 turns unless there's a huge blowout, but even at that, it's just so hard to come back once they beat you early and have a late game plan.
Top
  Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Energy at high rankings
PostPosted: June 11th, 2013, 03:35 
Skirmisher
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Tue Jun 04, 2013
Posts: 52
In-game name: CrypticBroodz
I am now at 1500 rating just inside the top #1000 and I don't consider myself to be a perfect player. However I am beginning to find it impossible to beat growth with god-hand and great wolf. By the time I can get a descent structure for my 3-4 creatures I have been overwhelmed by wolves (mangy wolf can be very powerful with -1 countdown).

_________________

Alliance Leader


Chains of Karth

Top
  Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Energy at high rankings
PostPosted: June 11th, 2013, 06:15 
Spearman
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Fri Jun 07, 2013
Posts: 40
In-game name: KyrosQF
darksteel wrote:
KyrosQF wrote:
Quote:
But yeah, the great feeling of getting God Handed or Rallying / Crimson Bulled four turns in a row (yeah, that happened) is hard to beat. :) Growth looks strong atm.

Basically this. It doesn't matter if you are using energy or order, this will happen in Growth's end game. If you don't have a huge momentum advantage (or tempo) to keep the board clear, this strategy is indefensible.

I do play order and I like playing order, got to near 1800 rating then ran into this problem several times in a row. This growth strategy isn't OP, but it is a very solid deck strategy that has a powerful endgame. It only feels unfair because Energy is supposed to be the endgame color.


That's the whole point. Growth can't be an early game and end game deck, the game shouldn't work like that. The thing is, all games are going to go to like 20 turns unless there's a huge blowout, but even at that, it's just so hard to come back once they beat you early and have a late game plan.

It's a good point. At times I feel that crimson bull is extremely undercosted at 2 and should be 4. Rallying should cost 7 given that it casts two blessings of haste on every single character you have on the field, Godhand should give +2 attack and relentless, not more cooldown manipulation. Each Kinfolk Veteran is an effective burn spell with the bonus of also being a 3-2-4 creature. And Mangy Wolf translates into a Rallying in most situations...

But people can come to the same conclusions on a lot of things from Order and Energy too.

TLDR - Growth is popular because it is fast, easy to play and successful. Not because it is vastly overpowered. (Imo)
Top
  Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Energy at high rankings
PostPosted: June 11th, 2013, 07:08 
Skirmisher
Offline

Joined: Wed Jun 05, 2013
Posts: 56
In-game name: darksteel
KyrosQF wrote:
It's a good point. At times I feel that crimson bull is extremely undercosted at 2 and should be 4. Rallying should cost 7 given that it casts two blessings of haste on every single character you have on the field, Godhand should give +2 attack and relentless, not more cooldown manipulation. Each Kinfolk Veteran is an effective burn spell with the bonus of also being a 3-2-4 creature. And Mangy Wolf translates into a Rallying in most situations...

But people can come to the same conclusions on a lot of things from Order and Energy too.

TLDR - Growth is popular because it is fast, easy to play and successful. Not because it is vastly overpowered. (Imo)



Yeah, my friend and I that play Magic had a lengthy discussion about how Crimson Bull is undercosted, and the same for Rallying. These are simply two of the best cards in the game, there's no two ways about that, and they're starting to get out of hand.

For Crimson Bull, it's just giving you two temporary Ancestral Totems. Given that they would cost a combined 8, it's a steal for the Crimson. If you look at Energy, all their pump spells cost 2 in the first place, as do all the pump enchantments in Growth as well. It costs me 2 for Metal Heart and the average on Crimson Bull is more. When you play it in a deck that plays a lot of creatures, well, it's just unbeatable.

For Rallying, I like to compare it to Bombard. Bombard has a -2 cd effect on your units, but it only affects half of the units on average. No Iron Ogres, no Gravelocks save the Elder, no Copper Automaton, no Clock Library, no Charge Coil or Ether Pump. The last three are what Energy wants to play but they don't really do enough against a deck that can kill them faster than they can produce any value. I'll play my Charge Coil, please don't have a Rallying, or a Kinfolk Veteran, or a pump for your Kinfolk Brave, etc., there's just a lot to kill it. Even if we wanted to suggest a second Bombard card for non-ranged/lobber, it would effectively cost 6 minimum, so 7 seems reasonable given a more powerful card needs to cost a bit more (6 would be the aggressive cost). The fact that they can play a dude AND Rallying the same turn is a problem. It should cost enough that they really can't unless it's the cheap dude in their deck.

God Hand is another very powerful spell because it's a combination of both. If our adjustment is to make the others cost 4 and 7, then God Hand costs somewhere between 10-12 (depending on whether you feel the combination should cost less or more, I feel like it should cost more, so I'd say 12). Of course, your Relentless idea is cool too.

I understand the aggro deck relies on playing creatures cheaply and going to town, but it's just out of hand right now. Kinfolk Veteran is out of range of kill spells except the big one. So is Jarl and Great Wolf. That's effectively 9 creatures I need to deal with my 3 copies of a spell. It just can't be done efficiently. And you're right with Veteran, it's a Burn where the upside is it'll Burn again in two turns. And they can't even Burn it! The fact that I have to use 2 spells to kill 6 of their creatures (factoring in 3 Violent Dispersals on 3 of the 9) is legitimately a problem. As a controlling deck, you need to gain advantage, and two-for-ones on yourself aren't exactly helping. I can't create a board state in a match where I waste turn 6 going Spark into Burn.


As an Energy player, I've been having just too much trouble trying to deal with Growth. I don't think I'm a bad player by any means, I'm still around a 1700 rating (+/- 50), but again and again I'm finding that it just can't be done. I've played variations of construct decks, they didn't work out. I'm playing an aggressive one with Gravelocks, it doesn't work out. With the Gravelock one, I often fall into problems on turn 2 from the get go. Kinfolk Brave, how do I deal with it without the Shock? I need to draw Burn and take two. Oh, and did I mention? There was a turn 4 Brother to follow up. If I could kill it on my turn, that'd be great, but I can't, because my spell costs 6 and this is 5. Then his turn 5 is the Kinfolk Brave, my turn 5 card (if there was one) is dead, and now I have two 3/2/4's to deal with. If you (or someone else, perhaps Sysp) have an Energy list that has decent success against Growth, I'd really love to see it, because I, for the life of me, can't do it. I was never a great deck builder in Magic, but it can't be impossible to build such a deck in this game, or rather, shouldn't be.

Another big problem is Thunder Surge. Bad Growth players don't play around it and get crushed by it. Good Growth players play around it and it's useless - do I cast it and hit a couple of things? Do I save it to hope he plays into it (which I know he won't)? Mediocre players fall into it sometimes and still just beat you, because it's a good deck. They get a global pump AND the global Wrath (Quake)? We have to use Thunder Surge which is just so easy to play around, and it doesn't even kill everything. We're literally forced to play all 15 creature removal spells in hopes that things work out, along with some of the pseudo ones like Iron Whip.

The absolute biggest problem is that I have only played against Growth in my last 10 games. This is the telling sign. When a deck or card appears too much in the top players/ratings, it shows there's an imbalance. That's not to say there are no Order or Energy players, but they'd better draw well and be the best players in the game. I accredit some of this to the ease of Growth in comparison, but clearly the game is out of balance at the moment. This game doesn't scale into late game the way Magic does, and I should know, playing a deck that plays two of the best late game cards/combos ever printed. The way this game scales, if you can set things up well, you're laughing. If I'm a Growth player, I could go like 1-drop (or something in play) into Fertile Soil into another creature. Next turn, another creature, Rallying, I'm decimating your board.


Sorry if I went on a bit of a rant, but I feel like this game's imbalance is starting to show. I'm a little frustrated that the deck I chose is just too difficult to play / it's bad against the deck everyone is playing. If I felt like Order stood a good chance against Growth, I'd switch to it right now.

tl;dr - Growth is OP and legitimately needs nerfs on God Hand, Rallying, and Crimson Bull. I'm also looking for an Energy deck which stands a decent chance against Growth.
Top
  Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Energy at high rankings
PostPosted: June 11th, 2013, 08:35 
Skirmisher
Offline

Joined: Tue Jun 11, 2013
Posts: 51
Location: Germany
In-game name: pope
Actually i am playing an Order/Energy-Deck which can hold against the rushing Growth-Decks. Played alot (ofc) against Growth players and won all of them except one. Ofcourse they beat my idols really fast but if you can defend the first 8-10 rounds in a good way, they have no chance anymore. The problem is people are giving up too fast - i am not speaking about surrendering - i mean the thinking that they have already lost.
I found a weak spot: God Hand, Rallying and Crimson Bull are useless without creatures. :D (ofc it is a joke, but you can think about it, too.)

Maybe i am at a noob level (~1650). Well i would be at 1750 easy but lost many points through this "Reconnecting/Disconnecting-Bug" before the game started. Also i tried new deck creations on ranked matches first (btw a really dumb decision).

I am not a native english speaker, but i guess you already realized. Sorry guys.

___
pope

PS:
@darksteel:
Quote:
For Rallying, I like to compare it to Bombard. Bombard has a -2 cd effect on your units, but it only affects half of the units on average. No Iron Ogres, no Gravelocks save the Elder, no Copper Automaton, no Clock Library, no Charge Coil or Ether Pump. The last three are what Energy wants to play but they don't really do enough against a deck that can kill them faster than they can produce any value.


I dont play any of your called cards, except Gravelock Elder.
Top
  Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Energy at high rankings
PostPosted: June 11th, 2013, 09:00 
SG Tournament Winner
SG Tournament Winner
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2012
Posts: 907
Location: Snowy Sweden
In-game name: Sysp
The game is delicately balanced.

We tested the game a lot in the Alpha and just before the Beta there was a couple of smaller changes done to Order that turned what used to be a 80-20 matchup vs Growth with optimal decks into a 30-70 matchup.

Vaettr got dropped to 1 Growth (from 2).
Brother of the Wolf got his countdown bug fixed (it used to reset to 3 when summoning).
Imperial Resources got its cost increased to 7 (from 6).
Ducal Spearman got its Attack lowered to 1 (from 2).
Faith's Blessing change was "reverted" (used to deal damage to creatures on the same row for a couple of patches).

Small changes but enough that it tipped the scales. There has been a shift in builds lately in the Order decks where Royal Vanguard gets played more since that buff was really good, but that has caused people to drop the boardclearing that made the deck shine (Mangonel / Summons).

When it comes to Energy vs Growth, this matchup is traditionally in Growth's favor, mainly because of Kinfolk Veteran. If anything, Energy now must absolutely positively kill the early Vaettr as soon as it hits the board or lose to turn 3 or 4 Kinfolk Veterans or Great Wolf with next turn Mangy.

When I set out to find a deck for Beta, I mainly built to beat Order (Mangonel Madness in particular) since it was the obvious clear best deck in the fields before the patch changes I mentioned above. Hence, I played stuff like 3x Charge Coil since that is a very powerful scroll vs Order, and I was content in saccing Coil vs Growth (mainly because it dies to Quake for free) since it provided so much help in the Order matchup.

Here's the deck I've been using in Ranked for the past week, which has a great matchup vs Order:
http://www.scrollsguide.com/deckbuilder/?d=1142

Now, with the metagame shifted towards Growth (when I log into Ranked queue now, it's 80% Growth at higher levels), we no longer have the luxury of a blowout matchup vs Order. A competitive Energy needs to sacrifice power vs Order to fit more scrolls in that improve the Growth matchup. That means that stuff like Charge Coil needs to get cut.

The goal now is to build a deck that:
* Deals with Vaettr asap consistently. Early its a must, late it is very worthwhile (since they can always use more resources).
* Deals with Veteran as efficiently as possible.
* Can either finish the game before God Hand starts coming every turn or can clear the board regularly so God Hand is less of a threat.
* Can take and hold the center.
* Has a 50-50 matchup or better vs Order.

I'm still testing the deck so that is why I don't have full decklist for the version that does well vs Growth, but I'll let you know when the testing is completed.

There are definitely ways of beating Growth before claiming it OP and giving up. This is a deck building and play skills challenge, if you only look at the problem the right way.


Last edited by Sysp on June 20th, 2013, 14:53, edited 1 time in total.
Top
  Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Energy at high rankings
PostPosted: June 11th, 2013, 09:22 
Spearman
Offline

Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013
Posts: 40
Surprised at the lack of any Blind Rages, Sysp, especially if you're tailoring against Order.

Solid deck- different direction to how I play Energy, but I can see what you're doing and I like it.
Top
  Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Energy at high rankings
PostPosted: June 11th, 2013, 09:27 
SG Tournament Winner
SG Tournament Winner
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2012
Posts: 907
Location: Snowy Sweden
In-game name: Sysp
I used to play 1 Blind Rage, 1 Thunder Surge but it has the same problem as Thunder Surge - superb against bad players, mediocre vs good ones. Glad you like the list!
Top
  Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 1317 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 88  Next

All times are UTC + 1 hour


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Jump to: