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 Post subject: Wild Automization Suggestion (Credits to Paralykeet)
PostPosted: November 22nd, 2014, 09:07 
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Note: I realized after coming up with this that Paralykeet had written something identical to this, so I probably got the idea from him and forgot about it until now :P Credits go out to him.

1. You gain 0/1 Wild every time you sac for 1 of each resource in your multi-resource type deck.

The effect of this tweak would result in multi resource decks gaining approximately 150% more resources than mono-resource decks, but they would trail behind in tempo on certain key turns as their ability to play as high-costed scrolls as mono-resource players would be limited every other turn (Graph 1.)

Image

It might seem like the increased total amount of resources would make the multi resource decks more effective, each amount of resources they being able to spend on the second resource type being approximately half of that which they spend in the first resource, but here is where the drawbacks of splashing into the multi-resource would help balance the game. As can be seen in the above graph, the multi-resource player will be able to spend 1 less Tr (effective total resources spendable in a single resource type) at turns 2, 4, 6, 8, 10 and so on - which should suffice to give the mono-resource player an advantage to make up for the cross-resource combos that the multi-resource player will be able to take advantage of. The benefit of this system is that you allow people who go into 2+ resources to maintain roughly the same tempo (the tempo penalty only being present every other turn), which helps move cross-resource decks away from late-game/control deck archetypes - which is currently the case with most of the “playable” multi-resource decks in the game. This change should give rise to a whole new slew of aggro as well as mid-range decks that draw upon thematically appropriate combinations that were with the previous system simply too slow (Such as Decay/Growth Beasts.)

2. Cross-resource ramp scrolls are removed.

Naturally, a design such as this would on its own be enough to help multi-resource decks catch up to mono-resource, and as such any cross-resource ramp scrolls would probably be too powerful, as they might then outpace the mono-resource decks in tempo. If the automatized wild system is implemented, the following scrolls would have to be removed as cross-resource ramp tools:

  • Desert memorial
  • Law Memorial
  • Sand Pact Memorial
  • Stone Pact Memorial
  • Tribal Memorial
  • Woodland Memorial
  • Darkstrike
  • Efficiency
  • Erode
  • Return to Nature
  • Tethered Recruit
  • Vigor Extraction
  • Energy Siphon

Doing so would naturally also free up the art and unit art of the above scrolls to be retooled into fresh new scrolls, which might help save man hours devoted to creating new scrolls. Assuming it takes approximately 3 days to create one scroll from scratch, turning the above cross-resource ramp scrolls into non-ramp scrolls would save the developers roughly thirty-nine days of development.

Below are a couple of suggestions of what the above scrolls could be changed into:

The Memorials

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Others

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3. Scrolls, should the need arise, will have Gold and Silver scroll costs.

In the end, simply removing the cross-resource ramp scrolls might not be enough to curtail the multi-resource decks, making them so much more powerful than mono-resource decks that overall deck diversity is hurt as fewer mono-resource decks end up viable. I don’t know whether or not this would happen, as simply upping the tempo advantage of multi-resource decks does not remove the inherent weakness in them - increased RNG and unreliable draws as they have two deck pools to draw from, whereas the mono-resource player will have a more reliable draw. Extensive testing on the test server, with the new automatized wild progression system implemented and the removal of cross-resource ramp scrolls is required before we’d be able to tell whether or not multi-resource decks would be too powerful.

Should they prove too powerful, and if it comes down to multi-resource players being able to pick the best from each resource type or combining different resource scrolls into degenerate control decks like Somata Control, one can introduce Gold & Silver scrolls:

Any scroll which has a silver resource numerical value can be paid with in Wild:
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Any scroll that has a golden resource numerical value (e.g. like every scroll today) can only be paid in its resource, and not Wild:
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That means that the free resources generated by the automatized wild system will be even harder to make use of, as you will not be able to use wild to pay for certain Loyal scrolls. The benefit of this approach is that you retain the general flexibility of multi-resource decks, capable of nerfing problem scrolls in said decks without hurting their usage in mono-resource decks. Loyal is in a way similar to the threshold color system from other TCGs such as Magic: the gathering and HEX, in that it is way to make certain cards only playable if you go deep within a single color or resource. The benefit of loyal as opposed to going with a general resource system with color requirements is that it doesn’t require any major UI tweaks, and is a lot easier to grasp for beginners as they only have to concern themselves with whether or not a Scroll can be paid with in Wild.

As for which Scrolls should be given the Loyal treatment, that’s entirely up to which scrolls prove too powerful in multi-resource deck environments.
I think you could curb too strong decks from popping up in the first place by giving the following scrolls a golden cost:

Kinfolk Veteran
Jarl Urhald
Nuru
Cay
Thea
Oblivion Seeker
Quake
Thunder Surge
Violent Dispersal
Damning Curse
Sudden Eruption
Burn
Witch Doctor
Honorable General
Jarl
Sister of the Owl
Godhand
Rallying
Speed
Iron Ogre
Solemn Giant


Last edited by Squiddy on December 30th, 2014, 20:09, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Wild Automization Suggestion (Credits to Paralykeet)
PostPosted: December 27th, 2014, 14:40 
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Since this topic is once again relevant, I'd like to show how this system would be a great tweak to wild that is worthwhile a test run on the test server, since it is in-line with the developers' stated design goals for multi-resource:

  • We want multi-resource decks to be viable in order to increase deck variety. Two resources should be more viable than three (in order to preserve some deck identity), and if multi or mono should be stronger, we’d like to err on the side of multiresource decks.
  • We like having restrictions in decks so that each deck has identity and counter-play.
  • We want decks to be not only fun to play, but also fun to play against.

1. Yes, it would make multiresource decks slightly stronger than mono resource decks, but that is in line with that the developers have stated.

2. It would also restrict the multiresource decks slightly, since they would have a tempo lag on un-even turns as they gain a spent wild, but cannot use it until next turn. Furthermore, while control and midrange decks would be more powerful, aggro wild decks would also increase in power and hopefully create an environment where each deck got a soft counter in the form of a different archetype.

3. With the implementation of Loyal-costs, you would also be able to finetune the wild decks so that they won't escalate out of control and become unfun. For example, all the components of Somata control could be getting Loyal costs - meaning that they wouldn't be able to be paid for in Wild.
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 Post subject: Re: Wild Automization Suggestion (Credits to Paralykeet)
PostPosted: December 28th, 2014, 05:00 
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I would like to see Mojang try your suggestion on the test server, it would be interesting to see where this lies in terms of power & balance. There are some downsides to suggestions like this, splashing during late-game is very easy, but i don't really mind that anymore, and compared to getting advantage from drawing new scrolls this shouldn't be that different.


Anyway, I might as well post this here. One of my own Wild idea's is quite similar to this one, but I prefer it because it doesn't give you extra resources (free wild), it makes multi-resource decks easier to use, by comparison dual resources is just slightly weaker while tri/quasi-decks are stronger.

My suggestion: If you have 1 of each resource then they (1 of each) are converted into Wild.

Example: You are playing a growth-order deck; Lets say you have 2 order and you sac for 1 growth, now you have 1 of each resource therefore 1 order & 1 growth are removed and replaced with 2 wild. Your current resources stay the same, next turn you get 1 order and 2 wild.

Example 2: You are playing a highlander deck with every faction. You have 3 order, 2 energy, and 1 growth. You sac for decay and now have 1 of each resource, therefore you lose 1 of each resource and get 4 Wild instead. Next turn you have 4 Wild, 2 order, & 1 energy.

It makes resources a little more consistent (instead of 1 order, 1 growth, & 1 wild; you just have 2 wild) and it doesn't give extra resources (slightly weaker). It is still a little too strong though.
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 Post subject: Re: Wild Automization Suggestion (Credits to Paralykeet)
PostPosted: December 29th, 2014, 19:19 
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That Darkstrike is the single most powerful scroll in the game.

At the beginning of your next turn, draw a Darkstrike might balance it.

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 Post subject: Re: Wild Automization Suggestion (Credits to Paralykeet)
PostPosted: December 29th, 2014, 19:27 
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davidslain wrote:
That Darkstrike is the single most powerful scroll in the game.

At the beginning of your next turn, draw a Darkstrike might balance it.

Note that it is drawn from your library, so if you got 0 Darkstrikes in your library it's a 3 cost that deals 3 damage. If you sac a darkstrike from your hand just once, its value plummets drastically.
But perhaps you're right, and that scroll could be turned into anything if the cross-ramp is removed.
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 Post subject: Re: Wild Automization Suggestion (Credits to Paralykeet)
PostPosted: December 29th, 2014, 22:54 
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Squiddy wrote:
davidslain wrote:
That Darkstrike is the single most powerful scroll in the game.

At the beginning of your next turn, draw a Darkstrike might balance it.

Note that it is drawn from your library, so if you got 0 Darkstrikes in your library it's a 3 cost that deals 3 damage. If you sac a darkstrike from your hand just once, its value plummets drastically.
But perhaps you're right, and that scroll could be turned into anything if the cross-ramp is removed.


Well, with the way deck cycle works in Scrolls... and the way the other searches work as well... let's just say that I'd run three of these, three hired smugglers, and three Burns in an order deck.

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 Post subject: Re: Wild Automization Suggestion (Credits to Paralykeet)
PostPosted: December 30th, 2014, 07:32 
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Nicon wrote:
I would like to see Mojang try your suggestion on the test server, it would be interesting to see where this lies in terms of power & balance. There are some downsides to suggestions like this, splashing during late-game is very easy, but i don't really mind that anymore, and compared to getting advantage from drawing new scrolls this shouldn't be that different.


Anyway, I might as well post this here. One of my own Wild idea's is quite similar to this one, but I prefer it because it doesn't give you extra resources (free wild), it makes multi-resource decks easier to use, by comparison dual resources is just slightly weaker while tri/quasi-decks are stronger.

My suggestion: If you have 1 of each resource then they (1 of each) are converted into Wild.

Example: You are playing a growth-order deck; Lets say you have 2 order and you sac for 1 growth, now you have 1 of each resource therefore 1 order & 1 growth are removed and replaced with 2 wild. Your current resources stay the same, next turn you get 1 order and 2 wild.

Example 2: You are playing a highlander deck with every faction. You have 3 order, 2 energy, and 1 growth. You sac for decay and now have 1 of each resource, therefore you lose 1 of each resource and get 4 Wild instead. Next turn you have 4 Wild, 2 order, & 1 energy.

It makes resources a little more consistent (instead of 1 order, 1 growth, & 1 wild; you just have 2 wild) and it doesn't give extra resources (slightly weaker). It is still a little too strong though.


I like this idea!
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 Post subject: Re: Wild Automization Suggestion (Credits to Paralykeet)
PostPosted: December 30th, 2014, 13:24 
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Got a new UI solution for how to differentiate between scrolls that can be paid with Wild and scrolls that can only be paid with the Resource cost on the scroll:

Gold costs and Silver costs

Any scroll which has a silver resource numerical value can be paid with in Wild:

Image

Any scroll that has a golden resource numerical value (e.g. like every scroll today) can only be paid in its resource, and not Wild:

Image

I think you could curb too strong decks by giving the following scrolls a golden cost:

Kinfolk Veteran
Jarl Urhald
Nuru
Cay
Thea
Oblivion Seeker
Quake
Thunder Surge
Violent Dispersal
Damning Curse
Sudden Eruption
Burn
Witch Doctor
Honorable General
Jarl
Sister of the Owl
Godhand
Rallying
Speed
Iron Ogre
Solemn Giant
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 Post subject: Re: Wild Automization Suggestion (Credits to Paralykeet)
PostPosted: December 30th, 2014, 15:56 
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That is actually a very solid idea, but what about mixing the costs? Veteran should cost 5, but I'd be ok with 4G 1W.

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 Post subject: Re: Wild Automization Suggestion (Credits to Paralykeet)
PostPosted: December 30th, 2014, 16:19 
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The problem with specifying mixed costs (e.g. a la Magic the gathering, or the "lite" version of HEX) is that it will lead to a cluttering of the scroll itself. This solution though doesn't add another numerical value to the scroll though, and the color coding makes intuitive sense since Wild does have a silver-ish colour.

Note that this tweak would be required if the wild automatization system would be implemented, I'm not suggesting it as a separate idea or anything.
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 Post subject: Re: Wild Automization Suggestion (Credits to Paralykeet)
PostPosted: December 30th, 2014, 17:57 
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It seems to add another layer of complexity in a game that really does not need it, the difficulty to understand the game being one of the major reasons a lot of people won't play Scrolls.

I'd rather like Nicon's idea with a cap at 4 or 5 wild.

As for UI, maybe Loyal could be a trait? The Loyal idea is a good one. Put it on Kinfolk Veteran and Oblivion Seeker for example :) For lore reasons, it may be called "stubborn" instead of loyal.
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 Post subject: Re: Wild Automization Suggestion (Credits to Paralykeet)
PostPosted: December 30th, 2014, 19:01 
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The problem with loyal as a trait is that it will clutter up scrolls more than simply color coding the scrolls. It's essentially the same information, just displayed as a color as opposed to a trait.
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 Post subject: Re: Wild Automization Suggestion (Credits to Paralykeet)
PostPosted: December 30th, 2014, 21:52 
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@Nicon- The automatic Wild idea started in the same place, but as time went on with the concept, it became apparent that Wild decks are always more resource hungry than regular decks. Even with the free ramp built into the system, Wild decks take longer to get online than non-Wild decks, and without crossramp, the point at which the free resources becomes relevant is obfuscated by the finer points of the game (like in-resource ramp etc.)

I don't really care for the Loyalty portion of this either- because anything this enables to be a broken splash is already broken because of cost. But I will say that with Wild decks, the difference between 3 and 4 resources in the off-resource is drastic, even with free Wild, sacrificing so many Scrolls to get anything that costs 3 or more online is tough without spammy spells and memorials that just make the resource for you.

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 Post subject: Re: Wild Automization Suggestion (Credits to Paralykeet)
PostPosted: December 30th, 2014, 23:34 
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I like to cover all possibilities :P

You wouldn't need to add in Gold/Silver costs from the outset, it is enough to just remove the cross-resource ramp scrolls with the implementation of automatic wild gain. It's just something that players need to hash out on the test servers until happy.

But, just in case, got a neat and UI-clutter free add-on solution for the developers :D
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 Post subject: Re: Wild Automization Suggestion (Credits to Paralykeet)
PostPosted: December 31st, 2014, 06:47 
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Squiddy wrote:
I like to cover all possibilities :P

You wouldn't need to add in Gold/Silver costs from the outset, it is enough to just remove the cross-resource ramp scrolls with the implementation of automatic wild gain. It's just something that players need to hash out on the test servers until happy.

But, just in case, got a neat and UI-clutter free add-on solution for the developers :D


Don't get me wrong- there are other uses for Loyalty as a concept... It's just that in the realm of being a throttling element, it only serves to make a complicated game more painful.

Rather, I'd rather loyalty work along the lines of "Loyalty: X happens (If this Scroll is payed for entirely in (O/G/E/D), the loyalty effect is triggered)". Simple, flexible design that works by encouraging the player to do something (play the Scroll without using Wild to pay for it,) without FORCING them to do so (making Loyalty Scrolls just as viable for wild decks, as for decks that opt not to use wild- but especially benefiting the ladder more than the former.)

The possibilities for designs are boundless- but it's the form of application that must always be considered and questioned. With regards to auto-Wild for example, I asked myself if it was okay to have 2 and 3 drops in multiple resources be online by 5- and the answer is a resounding yes, because it makes the viable cardpool and deckpool erupt- Where resources turning into Wild was a concept that predated the earliest discussion of auto-wild, but didn't solve the resource-hunger, or the issue of Wild decks simply having to spend too much time sacrificing scrolls to actually play much on the board without spamming spells like Return to Nature and Erode.

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