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 Post subject: Erratakeet Strikes Back: Metal Wonder
PostPosted: June 19th, 2015, 19:35 
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Joined: Tue Jun 25, 2013
Posts: 558
In-game name: Paralykeet
The Problem:
The problem, as I have always had with Metal Wonder, is that when it's good, it encourages one player to not play the game at all, in order to not take unnecessary risks with their idols. On a mechanical level, what makes something like Omen of Damnation acceptable, is that Omen simply punishes threat generation, but doesn't put the game out of reach, because the generated threats are still threats.

Wonder on the other hand, hits the two fastest Scroll types- spells and enchantments, and puts games against decks that rely on them into less of a situation where they need to counter it, and more of a situation where doing anything (even destroying Wonder, especially in multiples) results in unnecessary turtling and awkwardness- because sitting on multiple Wonders against the right deck is just "oops, I win."

My Solution:
Image

Still desirable to deal with for spell/enchantment heavy decks, fills a design hole in Energy's need for supportive structures, gives Energy it's first access to Sift (something the resource desperately needs a moderate amount of.) But most importantly, it doesn't punish anybody for playing the game, it just allows it's controller to push the game ahead easier through selection, while still being a solid wall (and importantly, a 3E unit instead of a 4E unit, which raises it's baseline from "useless" in many matchups as well.)

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 Post subject: Re: Erratakeet Strikes Back: Metal Wonder
PostPosted: June 22nd, 2015, 03:47 
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I agree that the current Metal Wonder is pretty annoying to play against. It really does just completely shut down decks that rely on spells. It seems especially harsh against Decay since there's really no way you can deal with it without casting at least two spells.
I kind of like the idea of granting factions acces to mechanics they normally shouldn't have as a way of countering other mechanics though.

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 Post subject: Re: Erratakeet Strikes Back: Metal Wonder
PostPosted: June 28th, 2015, 06:29 
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Posts: 114
In-game name: clamlol
[rant]
As one of a very few longtime Scrolldiers (possibly the only one) who isn't particularly satisfied with the direction the game's been going recently, I'm gonna try to briefly outline my argument on why something should exist that will keep spells and enchantments in check. Basically, I don't like the post-Waypoints Resonance, Removal and CDR playstyle because it makes the game too fast-paced and severely limits the amount of scrolls which are viable in the game. Back in the early days of beta, there were few options for removing big slow scrolls like Iron Ogre, so while it wasn't common to see these scrolls in ranked, you could still put them in a deck and win games. As time progressed, the game started becoming increasingly populated with scrolls which had an immediate effect on the board. It got harder to count on any given unit surviving for long because a flurry of spells would usually take it down before it made its attack. While enchantment-stacking has seen some big nerfs recently, spells are still dominant, so much so that a lot of scrolls (especially dedicated walls like Useless Contraption) just aren't really playable anymore. The kind of decks Metal Wonder does a good job of stopping are those which rely on flurries of spells and enchantments to shut down opponent units as fast as the opponent can play them, essentially meaning that all decks need suppression/removal/CDR to be viable. Obviously decks like that have always been dominant, but it's only recently that decks which take a slower, less combo-reliant, defensive stand have been rendered completely useless.

So TL;DR: The presence of slow units is healthy for a game and too much spell power prevents most of them from being playable. I say keep Metal Wonder as is.
[/rant]
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 Post subject: Re: Erratakeet Strikes Back: Metal Wonder
PostPosted: June 28th, 2015, 23:36 
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Joined: Sat Jan 25, 2014
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In-game name: Skywar
clamlol wrote:
[rant]
As one of a very few longtime Scrolldiers (possibly the only one) who isn't particularly satisfied with the direction the game's been going recently, I'm gonna try to briefly outline my argument on why something should exist that will keep spells and enchantments in check. Basically, I don't like the post-Waypoints Resonance, Removal and CDR playstyle because it makes the game too fast-paced and severely limits the amount of scrolls which are viable in the game. Back in the early days of beta, there were few options for removing big slow scrolls like Iron Ogre, so while it wasn't common to see these scrolls in ranked, you could still put them in a deck and win games. As time progressed, the game started becoming increasingly populated with scrolls which had an immediate effect on the board. It got harder to count on any given unit surviving for long because a flurry of spells would usually take it down before it made its attack. While enchantment-stacking has seen some big nerfs recently, spells are still dominant, so much so that a lot of scrolls (especially dedicated walls like Useless Contraption) just aren't really playable anymore. The kind of decks Metal Wonder does a good job of stopping are those which rely on flurries of spells and enchantments to shut down opponent units as fast as the opponent can play them, essentially meaning that all decks need suppression/removal/CDR to be viable. Obviously decks like that have always been dominant, but it's only recently that decks which take a slower, less combo-reliant, defensive stand have been rendered completely useless.

So TL;DR: The presence of slow units is healthy for a game and too much spell power prevents most of them from being playable. I say keep Metal Wonder as is.
[/rant]


This answer is from an Late game Order player so take my opinion with a grain of salt.

I think removing the possibility to play spell based decks at all at all is a little harsh. Some factions can't really do much against a Metal Wonder without spells. They (i.e. Order since this is the only faction I can really speak for) just can't get the Metal wonder behind the enemy units. This one card is locking down spell based decks without any trouble. I think that this "flurry" of spells is doable and not an excuse to kill a deck with one card. Again this is from some one who suffers a lot from Metall Wonder so my point of view is a "little" influenced and probably not fair to the real situation. But otherwise, yes this game has a lot of power creep and Useless Contraption is a good exaple for that.
Btw: I don't like energy (partially because of the Metal Wonder) should energy now be banned?
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 Post subject: Re: Erratakeet Strikes Back: Metal Wonder
PostPosted: June 29th, 2015, 02:25 
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Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2013
Posts: 114
In-game name: clamlol
Skywar wrote:
clamlol wrote:
[rant]
As one of a very few longtime Scrolldiers (possibly the only one) who isn't particularly satisfied with the direction the game's been going recently, I'm gonna try to briefly outline my argument on why something should exist that will keep spells and enchantments in check. Basically, I don't like the post-Waypoints Resonance, Removal and CDR playstyle because it makes the game too fast-paced and severely limits the amount of scrolls which are viable in the game. Back in the early days of beta, there were few options for removing big slow scrolls like Iron Ogre, so while it wasn't common to see these scrolls in ranked, you could still put them in a deck and win games. As time progressed, the game started becoming increasingly populated with scrolls which had an immediate effect on the board. It got harder to count on any given unit surviving for long because a flurry of spells would usually take it down before it made its attack. While enchantment-stacking has seen some big nerfs recently, spells are still dominant, so much so that a lot of scrolls (especially dedicated walls like Useless Contraption) just aren't really playable anymore. The kind of decks Metal Wonder does a good job of stopping are those which rely on flurries of spells and enchantments to shut down opponent units as fast as the opponent can play them, essentially meaning that all decks need suppression/removal/CDR to be viable. Obviously decks like that have always been dominant, but it's only recently that decks which take a slower, less combo-reliant, defensive stand have been rendered completely useless.

So TL;DR: The presence of slow units is healthy for a game and too much spell power prevents most of them from being playable. I say keep Metal Wonder as is.
[/rant]


This answer is from an Late game Order player so take my opinion with a grain of salt.

I think removing the possibility to play spell based decks at all at all is a little harsh. Some factions can't really do much against a Metal Wonder without spells. They (i.e. Order since this is the only faction I can really speak for) just can't get the Metal wonder behind the enemy units. This one card is locking down spell based decks without any trouble. I think that this "flurry" of spells is doable and not an excuse to kill a deck with one card. Again this is from some one who suffers a lot from Metall Wonder so my point of view is a "little" influenced and probably not fair to the real situation. But otherwise, yes this game has a lot of power creep and Useless Contraption is a good exaple for that.
Btw: I don't like energy (partially because of the Metal Wonder) should energy now be banned?

I see what you mean, although as someone who likes playing Energy as much as you do Order, I'm still not willing to see Metal Wonder nerfed. I guess the core issue is that spell-based decks and defense-based/counter/wall-filled/slow decks can't coexist and right now Metal Wonder is one of the only scrolls which keeps the former decks from being omnipotent in the meta. I'd like to see the latter type of deck make a comeback eventually, but until that happens I'm afraid yall will have to bear with me as I throw my weight behind Metal Wonder, Echomaton, and Ward.
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